WATANI International 19 September 2010
Watani talks to Amin Fakhry Abdel-Nour
Among those prominent 20th century Coptic figures who have taken a remarkable nationalistic stance is Amin Fakhry Abdel-Nour. His contributions include the participation in bringing back to Egypt the relics of St Mark (1968); holding the first dialogue between Copts and the Muslim Brotherhood (MB) (1991); and helping to produce the Coptic Encyclopaedia (1991).
Amin Fakhry Abdel-Nour comes from a family with a rich political legacy. His father was a member of parliament in the 1930s and early 1940s, while his son, Mounir, is the secretary-general of the liberal Wafd Party and also a former MP. Mr Abdel-Nour was born on 22 July 1912 in the Wayli district of Cairo. In 1936 he married Eitidal Amin Ghali, a granddaughter of the former Prime Minister Boutros Ghali.
Watani talked to Mr Abdel-Nour.
On 22 June 1968 the delegation dispatched by Pope Kyrillos VI to Rome received the relics of St Mark and brought them home to Egypt. You are known to have played a pivotal role in this event. Could you tell our readers about it, especially given that many of them had not been born yet at the time?
Pope Kyrillos VI and I were always on good terms. He asked me to travel to the Vatican and meet Pope Paul VI to express the Egyptian Church’s interest in retrieving from Venice the relics of St Mark since it was St Mark who brought Christianity to Egypt and was martyred there, in Alexandria. I had an excellent relationship with the Catholic Father Henri Airout, who was then head of the Jesuit School in Cairo, and whose advice I sought. When I told him about Pope Kyrillos’s pursuit, he said that I should carry a letter of authorisation from him to Pope Paul VI. I contacted Anba Samuel, the then Coptic Bishop of Services, and who was killed with Sadat on 6 October 1981, and told him about the issue. He provided me with the required letter. Afterwards I met the ambassador of the Vatican in Cairo who facilitated my mission.
I went to the Vatican and met Pope Paul VI. He told me that the relics were in Venice and the Patriarch there would probably not give them to me since the Venetians were proud of having them in their Church. However, he gave me a letter to help me to meet the Patriarch of Venice. Although officials there were at first reluctant to let me see him, I managed to meet him thanks to the help of Father Airout and other friends. He agreed to hand over to the Coptic Church in Egypt part of St Mark’s relics and garment, which was, for us, a most pleasant surprise. Pope Kyrillos sent a formal delegation to receive the relics, and I was among those who accompanied him to receive the relics on the evening of 22 June 1968 at Cairo Airport in a most moving ceremony.
You were the sole lay figure who accompanied Pope Shenouda III on his visit to Rome, which was the first by a Coptic Patriarch since the fifth century. Will you also tell us about it?
The visit was to thank the Roman Catholic Church for accepting to give Egypt the relics of St Mark, and to forge stronger ties between the two churches. I accompanied Pope Shenouda III because of the role I had played in this issue.
How do you describe your relationship with Pope Shenouda?
Anba Samuel was the one who introduced me to Pope Shenouda, who asked me to teach him French. I was also among the group of Coptic lay figures including Ibrahim Naguib, Antoun Sidhom, Albert Barsoum and Kamal Ramzy Stino who supervised the ceremony in 1971 in which a sacred lot was cast in the sanctuary to elect a new pope: Pope Shenouda III.
Is this what led you to visit Pope Shenouda while he was under forced into seclusion in his desert monastery by orders of President Anwar al-Sadat in September 1981?
Yes, I was the first person to visit the Pope after Sadat placed him under house arrest in Wadi Natroun. I used to obtain a security permit to visit him once a month. I remember the effort the Reverend Samuel Habib, representative of the Evangelical Church, and Amin Fahim, head of the Association of Upper Egypt and representative of the Catholic Church, put in with me and other prominent Copts to free the Pope.
Copts held their first dialogue with MB in 1991. Although Antoun Sidhom and Philip Gallab withdrew early on, you decided to continue with the dialogue for months.
A group of MB leaders attempted, on a personal basis, to conduct a dialogue with Coptic figures. I took part in the dialogue among a group including Antoun Sihdom, Kamal Stino, William Qelada, Fayeq Farid and Philip Gallab. Mr Sidhom withdrew a few hours into the first meeting in protest against the MB rhetoric which was laden with an arrogant imposition of Islamism. After the second session, Gallab withdrew on the grounds that dialogue with the Brotherhood was tantamount to “ploughing the sea”. But I continued with the dialogue for three months, until it proved difficult to reach any point of agreement. I still retain a close relationship with Mohamed Abdel-Qodous, whose father, the prominent novelist Ihssan, was my neighbour and dear friend.
Is it possible for a dialogue with the Brotherhood to succeed?
It depends mainly on respecting one another’s faith and taking the principle of citizenship as the starting point.
Tell us about your memories with the Rotary Club.
I joined the Rotary Cub in 1936. We meet on Tuesdays, and each time there is a new member. I was chosen as the best Rotarian worldwide. I introduced renowned journalist and writer Mohamed Hassanein Heikal and Ihssan Abdel-Qodous to the club.
What about your role in producing the Coptic Encyclopaedia?
It was Aziz Sourial Attiya’s idea to issue an encyclopaedia tracing the role of Copts in the nationalist movement. I was among the four people he chose to carry out the project. My role was confined to functions associated with fund raising.
How would you explain the frequent eruption of sectarian violence in Egypt?
The MB has become a major power in society with a host of representatives in Parliament. I believe they have much to do with sectarian events. Saudi Arabia, the centre of Wahabism, finances violence targeting Copts. The way out of this dark tunnel is to revive the slogan raised by the Wafd in 1919: “Religion is for God and the homeland is for all”.
As a former Wafd leader, how do you evaluate the party’s current performance?
I admire the democratic and principled way in which Sayed al-Badawi assumed the chairmanship. I now consider the Wafd as the most democratic political party in Egypt. In general, political parties in Egypt are weak. But I pin a lot of hope on the Wafd.
But is it possible for the party to rise to power?
I don’t think so, because it is inconceivable that the military would accept a civilian president.
How do you evaluate the ElBaradei movement?
I expect him to have a big role in Egyptian politics, given his integrity and good reputation. Moreover, Egyptians now show an eagerness for change that breaks with the “either the NDP or MB” formula. So ElBaradei is now Egypt’s brightest hope.
You have been awarded three decorations.
Yes. I was raised in a family with a Francophone culture and worked in French banks and companies for some 50 years. Former French President Jacque Chirac granted me the decoration of Jean Dinard for my cooperation with the French company that carried out the Cairo underground project. I am an honorary citizen of the Montecatini, Italy, because of my frequent visits to the city. I am also an honorary citizen of the Vatican from which I received the decoration of St Gregoire, which allows me to enter Rome mounted on a horse.
What have the Egyptian regimes given you?
They gave me nothing at all. The late President Nasser placed my property under sequestration and placed me under house arrest for reasons I do not know. If it were not for my close relationship with Heikal, I would never have been able to get back my assets. I had a wonderful relationship with Sadat and the former first lady.
How do you see the future of Egypt after Mubarak?
The country needs change, and succession by Gamal Mubarak would not be acceptable.
But Pope Shenouda has publicly expressed his satisfaction with Gamal Mubarak succeeding his father.
Copts will not follow the Pope in this regard because they constitute a part of the Egyptian public that is now looking for change.
Should Copts be blamed for their marginal contribution in politics?
No, because whenever a Copt shows any interest in politics he or she suffers oppression and persecution. But they should be persistent in finding a role in the affairs of their country.
How could a Copt win in the legislative elections?
He or she should display an interest in people’s concerns and have adequate resources to finance their campaign.
Would you like to end this talk by telling our readers of an event of particular interest to you?
I saw the late MB’s general guide Omar al-Telmissani kissing the hand of Pope Shenouda III. When Telmissani fell ill and needed special treatment, the Pope ordered that he be treated abroad. Naturally, this was financed with Coptic money.