This article holds the same title as one I wrote last March in which I presented excerpts from an interview with John Joseph Mearsheimer, a 76-year-old American political scientist and international relations scholar who belongs to the realist school of thought. He is the R. Wendell Harrison Distinguished Service Professor at the University of Chicago. I see Mr Mearsheimer as a free voice whose poise, wisdom and objectivity have always gripped me. Today I present excerpts from another interview with Mr Mearsheimer who was hosted by Judge Andrew Napolitano on 2 May on his show Judging Freedom. The discussion centred on the student demonstrations that erupted in American universities under the motto “From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free”, denouncing what was going on in Gaza by the Israeli war machine. This sparked fierce reactions from the US administration, condemning the student demonstrations and branding them antisemitic. Following are excerpts from the interview.
“Yesterday [1 May],” Judge Napolitano asked Professor Mearsheimer, “Congress passed legislation and sent it over to the Senate which so broadly defined anti-Semitism that if I were a professor there and said from “The River to the Sea Let Everyone Be Free”, either I could be disciplined or the school could be disciplined and perhaps lose federal funds. So let’s start with some basics, what is anti-Semitism?”
Mr Mearsheimer replied: “The problem is that Israel’s supporters in the United States accuse anyone who criticises Israel, the US Israeli relationship, or the Israel lobby as an antisemite. What we have is a situation where the term has become to some extent meaningless… They’re using the elastic definition, criticise huge numbers of people who are saying things that Israel’s supporters don’t like. I mean it is basic First Amendment law that the government cannot get involved in evaluating the content of speech whether your speech is motivated by disgust over what the IDF is doing in Gaza or whether your speech is motivated by hatred for Jews you have the right to say what you want… A good number of the people in the crowd are Jews themselves and a good number of the people who’ve been arrested are Jews.”
“What is Zionism, Professor Mearsheimer?”
“Zionism is a commitment to having or creating and having a State that represent the Jewish people. If you think about the famous book by Theodore Herzl who I would call the father of Zionism, the book’s title is The Jewish State, somebody who is a Zionist has a commitment to maintaining Israel—maintaining a Jewish State.. My friends who are anti-Zionists don’t believe that there should be a Jewish State; they believe that between the river and the sea there should be a democratic State and whether it’s dominated by Jews or it’s dominated by Palestinians is largely irrelevant, of course if you’re a Zionist you don’t buy that for one second.”
“Is Israel a democracy?
“It is not a democracy because the Palestinians in the West Bank and the Palestinians in Gaza do not get to vote… Many people say that Israel is an apartheid State… But it’s not a liberal democracy… Most of the Zionists at the start and even most of the Zionists now would prefer to have a State that’s populated almost exclusively by Jews. I mean this is why there’s so much emphasis on ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank… They don’t want to hear people sympathising with Hamas but this is the United States of America and you’re allowed to say that you sympathise with Hamas and you’re allowed to say that you sympathise with what the IDF is doing in Gaza. Once you open up these debates and allow people to say what they want this does enormous damage to Israel’s image in the United States, it does enormous damage to the lobby and to the US Israeli relationship, and they don’t want that.”
“What do you think will happen if the IDF invades Rafah and slaughters another 35,000 people?”
“The protests will be even greater than they are now. I mean the idea that they’re going to shut down these protests by bringing in the police is not a serious argument…”
Mr Mearsheimer alluded to the Vietnam War and proceeded: “the only way you can solve these problems is by actually solving the problem that’s driving the train, and that means putting an end to the war… If the Israelis stopped all the killing and went to some lengths to give the Palestinians a decent life, the protests would die or at least they would be greatly reduced. But what’s going to happen here in all likelihood if you believe Netanyahu is that they’re going to go in Rafah and they’re going to end up killing many more civilians.”
“Is Israel an ally of the United States?”
“No not in any meaningful way. I mean people in the lobby and defenders of Israel like to make the argument that it’s a strategic asset; it’s not a strategic asset, it’s a strategic liability. From an ethical or moral point of view; everything that it’s doing is abhorrent from the perspective of American values. I mean we’re supposed to be enthusiastic about supporting an apartheid State? We’re supposed to be enthusiastic about supporting genocide in Gaza? Of course not! So the idea that this special relationship with Israel that we give it unconditional aid because it’s a strategic asset and it’s the morally correct thing to do is not a serious argument… This is the problem that President Biden faces now that he’s up for reelection in November. He knows full well that if he’s critical of Israel or he threatens to cut off aid to Israel, that the end result will be that he’ll lose for sure… If he crosses Israel or crosses the lobby they will take revenge on him. This is just the way it works.”
Watani International
24 May 2024